Securing Our Future; From Farm to Fuel

It's captioning is provided as a public service by the state of South Carolina funding in support for this program was provided by the Washington Group International the James E. Cliburn transportation research and Conference Center Environmental Policy Institute at South Carolina State University the National Nuclear Security Administration the United States Department of Energy and the Medical University of South Carolina. The. Oil of our world's abundant natural resources few have such a profound impact on our lives. Cars trucks ships trains jets almost all forms of motorized transportation rely on petroleum products for power. Industry. Much of the energy consumed to fill our needs and employ millions of Americans begins as crude oil.

Food. How can we feed ourselves much less the rest of the world without modern high powered agricultural equipment. Americans depend on oil for their quality of life. And there's the problem. Unlike the early part of the 20th century when American interests control much of the worldwide supply and demand for oil oil now controls us. America currently imports more than 50 percent of its crude oil needs. Our nation finds itself competing with booming industrialized economies in China and India for Petroleum Resources controlled by nations and interests often at odds with our own. Not to mention Mother Nature. This 2005 hurricane season wreaked havoc on domestic energy production and Americans pocketbooks. The burning question remains what alternatives will Americans so hooked on oil

embrace. How do we meet our nation's growing energy needs. How do we ensure our nation's security and its prosperity. And can America free itself from its addiction to foreign oil. Hello and thank you for joining us. We've assembled an extraordinary panel so let's get right to it tonight here. Want to begin with the governor of Montana Brian Schweitzer governor you've gained national attention for saying America must kick that addiction four billion barrels of oil. Can we do it and how do we do it. It was the Kennedy administration without even knowing how we could go to the moon said we must get there in 10 years. A community can pull together around a crisis. We consume about six and a half billion barrels of oil. We produce about two and a half billion barrels and so there's four billion barrels that we are importing much of it from dictators who

are not friendly to our way of life. Hold up those four fingers. We can decrease our consumption by 1 billion barrels I know we can do it because we did it from one thousand seventy five to one thousand eighty three. Change the way you live. Change the way you drive change the kind of vehicles you have in the appliances you have. We can produce 1 billion barrels of biofuels things from these kinds of seats canola camelina safflower. So bio diesel produce ethanol all of that we can produce a billion barrels. Now some would say a billion barrels is not enough that's only 20 percent of our total supply. I'd say it's a lot but we're a long ways away from that. So now conservation biofuels we're still two billion barrels short. We've got to dig up an old supply of coal. We can produce fuel with coal we can produce this ultra clean diesel fuel and aviation fuel from coal for about a dollar 20 a gallon.

We have enough coal in this country to supply for the next 400 years. The technology's not quite there yet although South Africa's been doing it for 50 years. The Germans developed it about 80 years ago. There are still a few technological hurdles but nothing like we've managed to accomplish in the Kennedy administration going to the moon. We could be energy self reliant in less than 10 years if Congress would move. Let me play devil's advocate which is most of my job tonight direct traffic play devil's advocate. Some might say well here's a governors who's from a state sitting on tons and tons and tons of coal of course he's going to say coal Weikel. We are the Saudi Arabia Iran and Russia of coal in this country we have more coal than any other country in the world. Montana does have 35 percent of the coal but there's 30 states with coal. Will be out of the hydrocarbon business in 40 or 50 years. It will be fuel cell technology with hydrogen or cold fusion something else. But we have got to have planks on the bridge to the future. I just showed you the planks.

There is not a single solution. It's going to take conservation it's wind power it's solar power it's nukes. I know people don't like to hear that clean coal technology biofuels but we better move or will be dependent on dictators more from the government I want to bring to the conversation Dr. Todd Wright the director of the Savannah River National Laboratory right here in South Carolina. You heard the governor talk about biofuels. Many people out there watching saying What's a biofuel what are we talking about when you go and pass a farm you typically look at a farm and think that the purpose of a farm is to raise. Products for our consumption. What's changed is the governor pointed out his energy independence and we need to look at the farm differently because what farm can do for us now is not only feed us. It can also power automobiles power the farm power our communities. So biofuels basically is the production of liquid fuels from agricultural products. Plant matter grass basically in a living plant matter. It's just an energy benefit to that of what might other benefits be.

Well I think there are several benefits. First is energy security without question of where we need to look at the source of where energy is coming from our energy for transportation is coming from locations that are not reliable. So when you say energy security the the complement to that is how reliable is it. So the other benefit to this is also our economy by producing our own energy. We're able to do that at home. We're able to control it at home and we're able to protect it at home. Next member a panel might be consider the fact police here tonight Dr. Polian Moses You're the one of the vice presidents and a faculty member at one of the nation's historically black colleges and universities State University. How does an institution of higher learning play in this debate about alternative energy sources. Universities are at their best. When they are sharing ideas and discovers innovations with everyone. And we expect out of our universities but we also. The pin upon universities too to share

information this is unbiased unvarnished information this is not clouded by corporate interests or political ideologies and and we know that universities will be playing about battle well when they do that their way of the universe is also going to prepare the scientist and the engineers the technologists the managers the extension workers and the farmers who go on who are going to run the bow energy enterprise in this country. You mention the farmers the land grant universities tend to be out in those rural areas where there is the farm land still left in this country. What is the role of the university in talking to them and what is their attitude right now. In some ways this is exciting but in other ways probably very frightening. Well America's almost 70 Langrigg universities are in fact distributed very widely through the rural areas of this country. And as they address trying to create new fuel crops they'll be working with with consumers and farmers in making sure that they know how to grow the grow the crops and so that the yields will equal the yields of the larger

producers and how to cluster those small farms into. Cooperatives that can't provide the for the for the plant based fuel for the processing plant so we think the universities will see a role in continuing to work with with farmers in their region business and industry obviously have a huge role in this evolving debate. I want to bring in now and introduce Dr. Mary Beth Stanek She's the director of environment energy for General Motors in Detroit. We've been down this road before I'm old enough unfortunately to remember the gas lines in the Carter administration and then we went back to our ways. What's different this time. A lot has changed and it's very exciting and really it's going to be very different five years from now and we can do things right now as you know we've really been promoting the 85 and ethanol use we had a huge campaign called Live Green go yellow we're still implementing that campaign and the reason is is because we took a look at this issue and we made sure that it was a socially responsible issue. There would be enough food to feed not only human some but also for animal consumption. We certainly looked at it from an environmental

standpoint. And the greatest thing about our domestic fuel here is that it's truly a great source of energy conservation and also environmentally friendly in particular 85. Another thing we looked at was the abundance of it and all production has gone up significantly and I think we'll probably be talking more about this in this in this hour. But we also have a fairly large carpark of vehicles that are 85 capable so when you combine fuel availability with a lot of owners currently using flex fuel vehicles it seemed like it was time. One of my day to day efforts is to make sure that we can get E-85 into most of the markets and it's very powerful once E-85 is flowing and it's flowing competitively it really makes sense. And this way people have true fuel choice for the first time they can make a decision at the pump where they want to go and how much they want to pay and where they want to get their fuel from. So when you're dealing with that issue the availability who is the issue. Some might say the problem. Are you talking to distributors saying you need to sell this you talking to Governor saying you need to make this a priority in your

state is it a question for Washington. Well you know I have to say it's been remarkable everyone is engaged you know you asked what's changed and I think what's changed is instead of this being a very narrow industry 25 30 years ago everyone is involved now and it is at the federal level at the state level. And I have to tell you the governors have been outstanding They have all put energy as a top priority. All other agency leaders are all engaged so you have agriculture and energy and transportation EPA everyone working together. It's a powerful group of people. The public policy debate that involves the federal government which sometimes means policy sometimes means politics. Douglas Faulkner is the deputy undersecretary for rural development in the U.S. Department of Agriculture. One of your jobs understand is to help sell the president's policies and after the State of the Union to State of the unions in a row now the president put a pretty high priority on trying to move the country forward. We have a new Congress now what is the attitude the political environment in Washington trying to get moving. Well there's no shortage of leadership in Washington I think. President Bush has long been a proponent of green green technology renewable energy energy efficiency going all the way back to his days as

governor in Texas. Texas is now one of the leading wind electricity producers in the country. On the campaign trail in 2000 he advocated ethanol a new national energy strategy. He produced that national energy strategy within the first few months. He had a hydrogen initiative that this television station had a show on a few months ago. He had a dance energy initiative in the state of the Union address a year ago the State of the Union address this January expanded and broadened that. He also lost a farm bill which has new proposals for energy from the farm. Congress has not been lax in this leadership either there's been a steady progression of legislation the biomass R&D Act of 2000 the first ever energy title of a farm bill in 2002 and the Energy Policy Act of 2005. I don't think it's a partisan issue whether or not the pursuit of this energy this pathway that we're talking about will be a lot of good healthy debate as there should be in a republic like ours. But we're standing on the doorstep of phenomenal change over the course of this century and it's going to take a while to work this through our public process

but the process is working I think and partnerships are being built across the government between Department of Energy Department of Agriculture it with the private sector in the government things are moving and I think you'll just continue to see that debate as we debate how we're going to do this weather the weather. Is it a question of the D's versus the R's or is the question of the coal guys versus the corn guys versus the soybean guys. Well that's what I was saying earlier I don't think it is a partisan issue it isn't DS versus ours both both parties see the need to move forward this president's been very supportive of that. I think it's. It's how much money you put it the issue is fiscal responsibility of a lot of things you have to weigh in government and there's a lot of things you do in government it's not just money for research which is very important it's tax incentives it's policies that mandates like the new alternative fuel standard the president advocated. So there's a lot of things we have to do as a government a lot of things we have to do in the state governments and in the private sector. I don't see it as a partisan issue per se. More on that in a minute. The energy debate is also a public health issue I want to bring into our discussion Dr. Georges Benjamin.

He's executive director of the American Public Health Association. Some might say why is there a public health guy here what do you see as the public health questions in the energy debate. Well you know it's about healthy communities. It's about quality of life and it's about the reducing the cost of health care. All you have to do is think about the last time you were in. You got up and it was a small day and you know your eyes burned. If you had any kind of response or a condition you may not have been able to go outside. So it really is a very very significant health issue and our over reliance on fossil fuels is causing this problem and we need to have a much more balance utilization of energy. If we really want to become more healthy. Take me at the community level what are some of the things you see public health issues that you can connect the dots back to an energy question. Well let's go back to the big heat wave in Chicago Seven years ago where lots of people died. People concerned about the warming of our earth.

That is a big issue but that's an issue that the number of the fact of asthma cases growing up you know doing the Olympics in Atlanta. Very interesting phenomenon occurred. The number of asthma cases during that time period went down probably because there were less people driving people walking people getting out in the air was much cleaner do in that time period. And so help me understand the voice of the public health community in what is a political debate whether it's in Washington or the state houses. How do you wedge your way into the room if you will with so many competing interests. Well we talk about health care costs. You know if we can certainly come up with energy sources that help improve our health we're not going to spend so much money on that. And obviously I can tell you that there are many things around energy that are directly related to our health. And I ask our panelists want to help educate you a little bit further now with some of the issues we face in the country. Our title of course is securing our future from farm to fuel. We're talking about converting American grown products into various forms of fuel. How can we do that. Let's get some of the answers.

With increasing demand for alternative energies more and more of South Carolina soybeans are making their way from farm to fuel without ever leaving the state. Here is how it works. On a typical day Carolina Sawyer in rural Estell process is 1000 tons of soybeans into various products. The beans are broken heated and flaked all the way to becoming soy milk halls and oil. In bygone days energy was cheap and plentiful. The oil was shipped elsewhere to be refined into an edible product. No more Carolina soil recently completed a 9 million dollar investment in an onsite refinery. The new facility will yield 15 million gallons per year of refined oil. The main ingredient of bio diesel. It also brings 15 good paying jobs to a small rural community. Carolina ultimately

plans to construct its own bio diesel refinery on site reducing transportation expenses and hiring more workers. Now that we have developed a strong potential market for soybean oil and with the current market conditions the farmers in this area and probably nationally are taking a hard look at the value of planting soybeans. So I think it's been enthusiastically accepted in the farming community that this plant has a good future because of the biofuels component. For now much of the refined oil travels by truck a rail to upstate South Carolina and a former polymers plant turd biofuels refinery Karolina biofuels is looking to capitalize on the current call for energy independence. Company CEO Everett Dixon sees both the green and the green of an investment in alternative energies. It is groundbreaking stuff. It is a

new and mature marketplace. If you you know from a capitalist perspective if you do position yourself right there's a huge opportunity for growth. In that sector provided of course that the market matures Karolina biofuels converts refine oil into bio diesel from storage tank to finished product the process takes less than a day. Oil methanol and a catalyst combine in a reactor to produce bio diesel ethanol and glycerin. The mixture passes through a fuse a holding tank and a water wash before emerging as pure bio diesel ready for shipment to a gas station. We started off this week. I think our first month that we started we only shipped like 6000. Pounds of. Very small amount of. Sand sand. Last month we shipped 600000 gallons and we're. Looking to ship between 800 and a million.

Small So it's wrong tremendously and still the picture is incomplete. For that it takes a retailer who's willing to sell bio diesel with over 70 convenience stores in the Carolinas and a CEO looking to meet his customers needs. The Spinks company fills the bill perfectly. Biodiesel is an enterable part of our product offering other consumers demanding it. When we had the problems with supply last year I've read clearly that the customer wants an alternative to imported crude oil. They may not be in favor of the war weary UN but they are by gosh in favor of having an alternative to imported foreign oil and biodiesel is absolutely the best solution for us right now. Right now it's a very good for. The final leg of the farm to fuel journey begins when a speakes company tanker arrives at Carolina biofuels to take on a load of bio diesel. The tanker delivers the mixture to one of the company's stores where truckers see the benefits of pumping homegrown American made products.

Well a lot of benefits cars in the environment. No seven days you feel. Not very now they feel burned so be you know. That that helps farmers. Benefit. People from overseas. I'm proud of the man from farm to fuel from field to fill up. America is one step closer to energy independence. And watch those examples here in South Carolina it makes you wonder why can't we do more of this across the country let's get right back to our panel to discuss some of the issues some of the obstacles to doing more of this everywhere. Mary Beth I want to start with you on the question of infrastructure. You see the examples here one company in South Carolina some farmers in South Carolina they see a market they see a way to deal with the energy problem but make a little money. Nothing wrong with that. One of the biggest infrastructure hurdles right now to doing more of this cross-country rail has been an issue for a while. A lot of the rail leases are have been you know signed up for five 10 years and that type of thing. And also we needed to upgrade some of the blending terminals and some of the major major city centers

and airports and things and that has corrected itself a little bit but I think there's still more investment required and some grants that have to be put out there for the infrastructure around rail and barge. So I think that'll solve a lot of things. The other concern that comes up quite a bit is whether or not you know some of the biofuels should move through pipelines and things of that nature. I would say that economically you know that looks very attractive but I think we're seeing an infrastructure grow around biofuel movement where you have a number of things going out for instance there's destination plants so some of the raw inputs are moving. They're a little more. They're less expensive to move where they're when they're that way. Another thing that's happening is you're seeing the fuel staying close to home so like in the case of the Carolinas it's produced here and sold here so you're not going to get into a lot of the additional logistical expense. Want to turn to Doug Faulkner for a minute but I want our panel is not a shy group so jump in Don't wait for me to come to the question if somebody says something will jump in. But Mary Beth raises so many different points about the regionalization of this does that make it harder for the federal government to find its role if you will in trying to help with the

infrastructure if it is an ethanol question here a bio diesel fuel here. How do you pick and choose if you will government's role is to serve as a catalyst be a spark plug put money out there form partnerships for research and development. The president has said our goal is to help get this cost of ethanol cost competitive by 2012. We're spending a lot of money on research. The government also puts out tax incentives like in the Energy Policy Act to get people to buy hybrid cars. The government can also work on codes and standards that may be more of a state issue. The government can also put seed money out there for new entrepreneurs you know loan guarantees like. My office is looking at in the in the farm bill coming up to get people to bridge that gap where banks may not want to put money out there for technology that isn't proven yet. You know there is no cellulosic ethanol plant out there in operation so you need that money to bridge that gap. Todd help us out on that very question cellulosic ethanol. People have heard of ethanol you see E-85 at least in most parts of the country you can see that. What are we talking about.

What are the best way to consider that is when you look at ethanol ethanol can be produced from corn. So everyone's familiar with corn and how corn it's grown but the ethanol comes from the fermentation of the corn itself to form an alcohol which is ethanol. That's about one third of the total energy that's available from the corn plant itself. The remainder of the plant is so yellows it's a complex molecular structure that contains the sugars that are needed to actually make ethanol but it's tied up in a rather complex structure. It's a well-designed material designed to withstand biological weather. Of course that's what wood is used in construction so the research challenge is to find a way to very easily convert that cellulosic material into ethanol. There are two ways you can do it. One is a thermal process where you heat it up. That technology has been around for a while but there are some improvements that can been made. But probably one of the most fascinating and one of the most interesting and worth the push and research is to use

enzymes to find biological processes that can very rapidly take subtle lows and break it down simply and rapidly. So you were able to utilize the entire plant. Governor you're on the receiving end when voters get mad about how much they're paying for energy they sometimes take it out on their politicians even one who's been saying it's a problem for some time. When you listen to all this conversation from your perspective as a chief executive of a state what do you need from Washington and what do you hear in Washington that sometimes make you say no no no please stay away. What does Washington D.C. need to do. Think about it in the agricultural business we've had floor prices for the last 50 years. Washington D.C. says you know we're going to put a minimum price on wheat corn and soybeans. It'll be less than the cost of production. But at least when the price drops we can indemnify the primary producer and keep them in business until the price starts going up again. Think outside the box if we put a minimum price of $40 a barrel. So that whether you produce it with a biofuel or a coal to liquid or even if it's domestic drilling for oil and gas when you go

out to Wall Street and you say you want to finance a new energy project they don't take a risk in the commodity business. They know that no matter what OPEC's does if they start dumping more oil on the market or if China reduces their consumption the lowest price it will be is $40 a barrel. They will throw money. There will be money invested in all of these energy projects and it will be private industry that drives it. We have the technology to make a billion barrels of biofuels. We possess that technology today. What we don't have is a desire to go out and produce it because we haven't made it a priority in this country. We are still at single digits in terms of a percent of the total portfolio that is alternative fuel single digit and yet we have the capacity we have the technological capacity and we have for 20 years. We don't have the desire. The desire I assume in part comes would be fulfilled by preserving farmland and using it for these purposes. Doctor you know full well urban sprawl not only as a public health issue but it takes away much of the farm of the you might use for use for something like this how do you get into that debate

which involves a lot of money in local politics but also the public the public wants to live in the suburbs and I want to be in a crowded cities. What we need to do more health impact assessments we need to ask. When we have a farm that's failing Do we really want to reinvest in that farm or do we want to pave it over and put up a shopping mall. And if we put up a shopping mall What is that what are we really doing what are you really saying about our communities. We've built these communities and we were you know designing ourselves out of existence in many ways. You know we built these communities because so that we have to get into a car and go everywhere. You can't walk to school you can't walk to the shopping mall. We have communities they don't even have places for you to get good groceries because of the way we build those communities. And so we're going to take that failure and now we're going to get rid of good farmland and replicate it when we have technology and a way to revitalize that good farmland. Give us a balanced energy source. Just make us more healthy. Just doesn't compute unless we do it that way.

Some of that good farmland in this part of the country has been dedicated to years to grow tobacco. Which is a public health concern obviously is what is is there an issue an incentive there to convince these farmers and anyone please jump in to say let's change your crops. You need to get into the energy business. Well land grant universities have been working with small farmers and large producers to identify alternative crops and when we're thinking about biofuel crops we're talking about probably switch grass which is prairie grass that we all may we may have seen as we've driven out west sweet potatoes. So our beings Colborne and sugarcane those of crops that have been traditional crops grown from New Mexico all the way across to to the Midwest through Delaware. And I believe that small farmers can learn to adapt and use the use alternative crops to develop an entire new way of life and income on

their farms and other small farmers being hurt or is this going to become an Archer Daniels Midland enterprise in the end. I don't think so. I think there are individual farmers and individual entrepreneurs that our own pieces of ethanol companies around the country were taking a hard look at that in our office doing studies on new business models because that's really what we're talking about you can't really look at this from the standpoint of the hydrocarbon economy the petrochemical industry. This is a whole new industry that we're building in this country or industries as we change from a carbon based economy to a renewable based economy a green based economy. So you have to have to approach things differently but I think on your comment earlier I want to address out about farmers. Farmers are great businessmen. They're acutely aware of market signals and they see the market signal out there they want to. There's a lot of money to be made in this field and there are good businessmen they're going to they're going to tackle this and they're going to go after and make money. Todd I want to turn to you then Governor I want you to jump in anyone else but as you go through this transition and you're encouraging

farmers to switch to get in the energy business not the food business. Is there a tension there. And could one byproduct of this needed urgency to address the energy problem or result down the road in higher food prices. It's conceivable to grow corn as a consumable. But the remainder of the plant is used to make ethanol. So there can be tailored crops. And with the cellulose to ethanol conversion technology it's a way to utilize. Not only to the remnants of agricultural farming but the food portion of the economy can basically go harmed and that's distributed energy. We can produce as we suggested earlier. Across America using an abundance of different crops to produce different fuels. For example in Montana and other places in the Midwest a farmer with less than $10000 invested can produce their own bio diesel on their own farm. Grow the crop create the bio diesel that they consume

on their own farm. What could be better than that. Dedicate 10 percent 5 percent of your farm to production of your own Energies of so that you can produce other crops for sale its food ten thousand dollars maybe three farmers get together maybe you make a bigger plant with $50000 or $100000. The difference between an ethanol plant and a bio diesel plant is the starter ethanol plant is a 50 or 100 million dollar proposition where you would literally need to have hundreds or even thousands of farmers that would pool together in the bio diesel business. You could start with as little as $10000 producing 50 gallons of diesel a day and run your whole farm. Just one we cannot afford to leave small farmers behind here we have seen small farmers drive their tractors in trucks to Washington year after year and for the most part they feel like that that they have been left on a 30 foot hold and we continue to give them a go shot of a 10 foot rope. Bowel fuels can be a ladder that leaves out small farmers in their May 4 players in this enterprise.

Coming at us from the other significant safety hurdles that have to be overcome I know there are problems with transporting ethanol it's in some ways not efficient. That's more of a transportation problem not a safety problem there are safety issues we have to deal with. The thing is with ethanol it is a renewable fuel so if it was pure ethanol you know it is blended with a little gasoline but it was pure ethanol there was a spill. You can go right back in the ground so it's safe from that from that standpoint. But what you have to keep in mind is how you handle fuel. And I think with both bio diesel and ethanol because they are from renewable sources they're they're very safe. What you do want to do is make sure when you're developing your ethanol based fuels anything with alcohol is you want to test for corrosive ety and conductivity between metals and things like that because it travels when it's between the metals. So those sorts of tests are the things that we do in our labs and we make sure that they're safe. But I would say there's a fuel issue from a safety standpoint. Dr. Benjamin from a public health standpoint do we know where this is taking us. It took a long time for the world to come to the view that smoking. It is a very dangerous problem in a huge

public health problem. We know now about fossil fuels and what they can do to your health. Do we know these fuels we're talking about whether it's bio diesel whether it's ethanol. Do we know they're safer from a health standpoint or will we only find out when they're 10 or 20 years into down the road. You know we don't have all the answers but we don't have all the answers as the governor said we went to the moon either and we learned along the way. So the very important thing to do is make sure that you have that health component sitting at the table asking the right health questions. But you know I've got to weigh in on the tobacco issue I just can't pass that opportunity up. 400000 people die prematurely from tobacco. I mean Marilyn I was a health officer in the state of Maryland I tell you you know we work very hard we took our tobacco settlement dollars and we went to our farming community and said hey we want to buy you out of taking you know growing tobacco. We want you to grow an alternative crop and you know hopefully if more state did that with their tobacco settlement dollars that's another source to invest in this kind of change in technology changing

growth really is an investment in our communities and these products are relatively new and we're creatures of habit as Americans and we're lucky that we have at our disposal some of the finest products in the world. Are they good are there drivers producers what have saying is this going to be good enough for this product last in the marketplace or should I just stick with what I have. Businesses are forming all the time to produce these new products whether it's from bio based products producing plastics and paints and he sees some plant material or new fuels or green electricity. The answer is yes and I'd like to see us get to a day where Green is routine for all of Americans consumers. When I ask you to hang on just one second. Our panel is discussing this issue we have a studio audience here waiting as well. There's a reason for it it's a major public policy debate catching the attention not only in this room the politicians across the country. Let's listen. For too long our nation has been dependent on foreign oil. This dependence leaves us more vulnerable to hostile regimes and to terrorists who could cause huge just disruptions of oil shipments raise the price of oil

and do great harm to our economy. It's in our vital interests to diversify America's energy supply. The way forward is through technology. Image ought to be home grown in America. I think that if you just think about what we need to do as a country this energy issue is a national security issue. It's an environmental issue. It's an economic issue. Well there's no question that we need to be as aggressive as we can to become energy independent and that requires perseverance and kind of a. We're going to the moon in 10 years mandate which is President Kennedy laid down and we beat it and we still need leadership at the very top in this country to kind of throw the gauntlet down that we're going to do this and quit talking about it because we are more and more vulnerable. Biofuels have a tremendous potential in this country. The Department of Energy

and a whole group involving agricultural interests and some of the environmental community have embrace this idea of having a 25 percent of our transportation fuels come from biofuels by the year 2025. So the catch theme is 25 and 25 and that's a very realistic goal for this country. We are the bread basket of the world we can actually become the Saudi Arabia of biofuels. Look at where we are today because of our dependence on oil. We're in Iraq. We have leaders who are talking about attacking Iran. Now those regions did not have oil we would be talking about that. And so oil has driven our politics in a destructive path. Oil has driven our environment to a point where there's a danger. I believe the biofuels offer an excellent avenue to try to bring about greater energy independence for the United States through the use of agricultural products

corn and soybeans now being utilized for corn ethanol soybean diesel and hopefully in the future cellulosic ethanol from a whole gamut of fibrous products in our country. Likewise clean coal technology with carbon sequestered taken out of the coal so that we are able to utilize huge resources that we have in our country. I would favor further exploration for oil resources that are at least in the control of the markets as opposed to specific countries that might utilize these for political purposes. You're going to have to do several things to have energy independence. Several things to control CO2 emissions when it comes to global warming. Again on the power supply more nuclear cleaner coal on the transportation side. Alternative renewable sources of fuel whether it be at the know what the hydrogen battery powered cars bio diesel.

But what it's going to take is a massive man on the moon effort to transform this country from a fossil fuel dependent energy into renewable technology into solar wind bio mass fuel cells distributed generation. What is needed is a massive a massive public and private investment Apollo like program to make that happen within 10 years. The snapshot there of the significant policy debate also a snapshot there of the significant politics involved in the energy. Let's have another go around with our panel and Tom I want to start with you and I want to go all the way down on this basic question you heard many of the politicians say we need a new Apollo mission we need a new man on the moon commitment is our government our politicians from the president on down to local governments making that kind of a commitment do they view it with that type of urgency. I think you saw from the clip that there is that comment that I think that you see from that that there's an interest in going forward. I think the challenge is going to be staying the course. If we have all these different technologies start to evolve into practice there may be a tendency to sort of select one technology over the other. I don't think we should do that.

I think what the key is to maintain for stationary power to go with nuclear power clean coal a diversified base for that for transportation the renewable fuels as well as the other research needed to advance other forms of energy to power transportation that diversity is where the energy security will ultimately come from. You do have the sense that we're trying to go to the moon. Well I think that we tried to go to the moon when gas prices go to the moon. And when gas prices fall we tend to lose sight of our effort but if you talk to first graders through college students they'll they'll say that they're expecting our generation to do something about this. They want us to sense make a decision in take an action and we're not there yet in terms of taking an action. Is that a fair point are we grownups especially we grownups in public policy whether we're journalists or corporate executives or public policy officials or elected officials are we behind the curve way behind.

Actually I saw all of those contemporary politicians talking about energy independence. Why didn't we include Jimmy Carter and all of the politicians from the 70s who said exactly the same thing and then punted it to the next generation. The question is will we be sending our children and grandchildren to Nigeria or Kazakhstan or Turkmenistan or Russia to supply. The security system for another dictator in another generation. Or are we going to solve it this time. The Carter administration talked about energy conservation and started down that road. Alternative energy with biofuels solar wind. And then we lost we lost an entire generation. I got to tell you I don't think that we have the resolve. You don't get there with some research and development. You say this is where we're going to get to and we're going to do it this way. In 1980 I got out of graduate school I went to Saudi Arabia because the king of Saudi Arabia said we don't produce any food here. We import 100 percent of our food and we're not going to let the western world dictate our domestic policies. I'm an irrigation

specialist within six years. They were exporting food. That's a commitment. If a Bedouin in the desert can figure it out. The U.S. Congress ought to get it right. The governor talks very bent about the US. Thank you thank you. Thank you have made the case for flex fuels and alternative fuels but let's be honest I also work for a corporation that if in a struggling industry that is just now seems to be edging toward profitability as when gas prices come down and they're not at the post-Katrina $3 plus level anymore they're still too high in the eyes of most Americans especially working Americans but they're there back down in more of a less discomfort zone. I guess I'll call it in your boardrooms now as we don't have to go as fast we don't have to worry about that more. Absolutely not. No I'm sure you've read a lot of Rick Wagner speeches lately. He has stayed on point with all of our advanced technologies in particular biofuels as gas prices have dropped. He signaled and stated we need to stand biofuels. We need to expand into the electrification of the vehicle and that's the plug and vehicle we announced in full at the Detroit Auto Show and also we are staying the course with hydrogen and we'll be putting

100 vehicles in the hands of consumers towards the answer to 2008. I talked to Rick Wagner recently and had the great pleasure of driving GM hydrogen car out a vehicle to expensive to mass market right now but it's a sign of progress. He conceded in that interview that GM the American the whole American car industry but specifically G.M. were behind the curve in getting to this technology. The Japanese beat us to hybrids for example. Is there a commitment we went to the moon because we're afraid someone else is going to get there first. Is there a commitment that we may have started this one second. The alternative fuels the flex fuels the hybrids. But we're going to get to the end game. The big one first. Well you know I doubt that we have time but I would probably take exception of that because we really feel like we are leading in several categories of this. In particular the area of biofuels my goodness we have over two million on the road we're producing 400 going 800000 up to 2 million. If the right things happen with the rest of the infrastructure in the area of hybrids we're announcing for hybrid off for instance year one in particular is to motor hybrid which really the technology behind the two most fantastic not only do you get the efficiency in the city you get on the

highway. Right so that's that's a leapfrog technology that's terrific. But you know you have to watch how you spend and I think the spending has been wise in you wait for the technology to be commercialized at a point where consumers can purchase it. That's what we're doing right now. As you watch this doctor do you see whether it's government or industry university level. Are they trying to get to the moon or are they just trying to. They're going to try to get to the moon yet. You know this is not going to go anywhere until the public connects dots and demands that we want to do this. There are so many competing priorities in Washington. They're just trying to do too many things everybody thinks is a wonderful idea but they need a little push. So you know my mother needs to pick up the phone and your cousin and grandparents. We need to demand that we want to see change. And hopefully folks that will be watching this program will say that's an interesting idea and pick up the phone. Look on the Internet. Read a book learn more about it and then demand that we do it because there's

not going to happen to that kind of rush from the American people. Curtis and then we'll get to tipping point where our political leaders will put the money. On the table the incentives on the table in a rapid coordinated manner with a target. That makes sense to make this happen. Doug what kind of incentives is he talking about. And I hate the question but can we afford them in an environment where for or against it the war on terror is costing a great deal of money. The president wants to balance the budget. The economy is doing OK. Some would say not so great in certain parts. It's everything you do in government is a question of choices and priorities. What are the incentives and how much would they cost. And a Republican as big as ours with an economy as big as ours this doesn't happen overnight this will take decades to effect and the change is already underway it's hard to see it. But I think this is a change that will be for the history books. We've never quite seen something like this it will be a change of wealth creation on a scale we may never have seen in rural America and maybe

around the world as we use these the raw materials we have here at home to make these fuels so I don't see it and that and that sense is an Apollo project. There are incentives out there we talked I talked about him earlier the Energy Policy Act getting people to buy a hybrid cars or other incentives. There's a lot of things government the DO can do but there's a lot of things the private sector can do. There's a lot of things individuals can do they can step up and demand those products. This is going to happen is going to take time. Several things jumped out as we listened to those the various politicians in those clips there. One of the gentlemen at the end Congressman two senators a Democratic candidate for president. We are in a presidential election season already some might say a bit too early. The governor starting with you. Is that a good thing. And what must the Democrats and Republicans do in the next campaign to take this debate to the next level. They've got to do more than just go to Iowa in jeans and carts and say they're for ethanol because that's where it all starts and then we forget about it for more years. I take exception to decades. It was just 55 years ago that America was a net exporter of oil. And

so if we're saying it's going to take us decades to get out of this system it's ridiculous We've only been in the hydrocarbon economy for 90 years decades. Decade's means that we're going to have another generation. Jimmy Carter in 1976 78. We talked about exactly the same things. Price of oil went down. We forgot all about it and we kicked it along to the next generation. We need to handle this problem today or the next generation's going to be faced with the exact same problems that we have. Talk about dollars. My gosh when the price of oil went from $30 to $55 a barrel that's 100 that's a hundred billion dollars every year for five years that we've sent offshore. Add four hundred billion in the war in Iraq that's nearly a trillion dollars. You give me that trillion dollars and I'll have energy independence in less than 10 years. Could the president do tomorrow that the president tomorrow could do a few things. Number one we put a floor price of forty dollars a barrel for all domestically produced fuels. Number two we have a

cap and trade program. So those that are producing carbon dioxide will pay those who are sequestering carbon dioxide. And the next thing you do is you put up 50 billion dollars and it will be it will be technology neutral loan guarantees for folks to go out and build these new technologies were doing the R&D. Let's say to people like we did with Massa. If you go out and build those things if they all work you'll sell your product if they don't work we're going to stick with you until you get it right. In 1984 we built a coal gasification plant in Beulah North Dakota. It wouldn't break even at $2 and 50 cents a gas natural gas. Today it's selling for $6 and they're making a lot of money sequestering the carbon dioxide and producing natural gas from coal. In 1984 we didn't make sense but it does today. This this is not a resolve in this country. I understand that General Motors is moving towards building these bio fuel cars and that is great. We've got to go on the on the consumption side but on the production side we are still only at single digits in terms of

percentages of these biofuels and alternative fuels. If we allow ourselves to continue down this road and suggest a little R&D a couple hundred million dollars there maybe a billion there. Meanwhile sending 100 billion dollars a year to dictators overseas an Exxon Mobile with a 50 billion dollar cash position the highest cash position of any corporation in history. We're never going to catch up. Dr. Mose as you hear the great passion of the governor of Montana. Do the American people. John Q Public. Have that much interest and urgency in this issue or is that part of the problem. Well I think that I think that of the typical American citizen I think I am one would expect they or their politicians to tell them the truth even though it's as one politician said it may be an inconvenient truth. And I believe that politicians will till till I tell them that we should watch the sea shorelines that we should also watch the remember

the gas lines that we had in the past I think that they would would support a public policy that would would with the development of fuels to replace oil. Todd I don't have a debate about the Iraq war this is not the place for it but you heard Congressman Kasich there talk about that's why we're in Iraq. Forget about the Iraq war specifically for a minute but do you think that there is a complication to the policy debate and what needs to be done to research in a development standpoint by the fact that this can become so quickly an emotional issue whether you say it's about Iraq whether you say it's about why have we supported regime in Saudi Arabia that is not democratic whether it's what is going on with Hugo Chavez in Venezuela much of the oil we import comes from places that we would not put on our top ten favorite places in the world list does that help you increase the urgency or does it complicate the debate because you get so much emotion involved in it. Well I think that's where the realisation is coming from and very quickly it can become an emotional issue. We have been talking tonight about being behind the curve. And

I think some of that comes from First Energy has to be affordable. And more recently we have a better appreciation for the environmental impacts both locally and globally. I think the third component of that is that now we talk in terms of energy and energy security and energy security now has sort of changed the priorities so how we're making decisions. So as far as looking forward I don't think we can go back in as far as going to the moon. This is not about going to the moon it's about moving to the moon. We need that kind of commitment it's that kind of program. And it's that kind of diversity that's going to take in terms of really achieving energy security. Play devil's advocate with me Doug starting with you and I suspect others will want to jump in. I could stand here and say you know forget about this we can deal with more friendly regimes maybe will be nice but the Russians are going to develop more oil we'll get gas and oil from them we can drill in ANWAR we can do more offshore drilling. We can build more nuclear plants this conversation's a waste of time. Well I'd be silly to be wrong. We need more energy of all kinds we need more

nuclear power we need more electricity we need Americans energy demands are climbing our populations are growing our population is getting richer. We need to do everything we need more energy efficiency we need consumers to do things in their home after Katrina hit. I was doing a lot of public service stuff on the radio and television talking to consumers how they could save energy in their home and there's a lot each of us can do. You know small scale things add up across the country can make a big difference. I think a big American voters understand this issue they understand how important it is that wean ourselves off of this addiction to oil and they understand in the they feel in their pocketbook of these energy issues. I think we passed the point of no return we're moving down the road to change in the energy area. And I think it's going to be. I didn't mean when I said decades it would be decades before we see it before anything happens changes occurring but this is a big economy and there's a lot of pieces to it before we realize the full effect of it it could be decades. And I think it's a time of great hope. And Governor when you travel and look around the world should we be watching.

Why I think that you can watch Chinese because they're really driving this market right now. They're the second largest importer of oil today and less than one percent of their people drive cars. When they get to 2 percent 4 percent 8 percent I go back to the Carter administration. The shortage of oil at that time was politically driven. It was because the Saudis didn't like our close working relationship with Israel. They decrease the amount of oil that they were producing and they put us in a shock today the shock is that the Chinese and the Indian economies and the rest of third world are absorbing this surplus of oil at a faster rate than any time in history. If we decrease our consumption of oil because of biofuels or because of conservation those other economies are going to continue to absorb all of the oil that we produce in this country. This shortage of oil is real. We cannot keep up with the demand globally. If we continue to depend only on oil.

It's been a wonderful discussion we're running short on time so I want to ask each of you a closing thought and I'll start down here to make it easy with Todd a closing thought in 15 or 20 seconds. Looking forward if we came back here in a year or five and had this conversation what would be different or what should be different. I think one of the things that I see already is and particularly with regard to research there's so much great work going on. I'm really excited this really is a great opportunity. I do see progress. I think a year from now we will see breakthroughs. I think they'll be some near-term things that we see that are going to help us but that won't be enough. It's going to have to continue much beyond that and we need to resolve in the commitment to stay the course we can not look back and we cannot go back. John I was I was in India a couple of months ago in in Guyana as a way out in Nigeria and in particular in gone I noticed that they were asking our universe to help them develop about diesel plant. I believe that our government in our universities our corporate. Citizens are going to

have to take the lead in and bringing bow energy and biofuel to this country so that we can compete with other countries throughout the world. I will make more money during the next 50 years selling the technology of clean energy around the world than we made in the Internet business during the last 20 years. America can lead by selling this technology around the world and the rest of the worlds depending on us. I think what we're going to see and it's going to be revealed in a year's time is the convergence of university commercial business and government in the plan. So it could be a state level plan could be a regional plan could be a national plan or international. So I think what we're going to see in stead of all these separate topics you're going to see that there really is a master plan. And I really have to say the engineer idea of this nation and the people behind it it's going to be achievable. So I think we're going to understand it a lot better next year.

The chance of a lifetime. You know we have an opportunity here a better health cleaner environment. Lower costs. And. Place to go out and hang out in the family farm. Just a lifestyle. Is the glass half empty or half full and the answer is yes and I think it will still be that way. Renewable Fuels I think the governor said in green electricity are a small percentage of the market but they're growing at a phenomenal pace. And those two things will continue the growth will continue and I think we rely on the entrepreneurial spirit the imagination of the American businessman and people we're going to put us ahead and I'm very optimistic. I want to thank all of you I want to thank our remarkable panel for being quite informative I want to thank our studio audience for being quite polite civil. I want to thank you for watching I learned quite a bit today. I hope you did too. With. Funding in support for this program was provided by the Washington Group

International the James E. Cliburn transportation research and Conference Center Environmental Policy Institute at South Carolina State University the National Nuclear Security Administration the United States Department of Energy and the Medical University of South Carolina.